A18 2005 & A8 2006 Council Tenant Change of Address

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  • #8787
    Darren Broughton
    Participant

    Kevin revised his analysis and agreed that a mid-week end will occur and a new claim needed. And the DWP also confirmed that this was the case.

    #8788
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Oops, didn’t read that bit! My apologies for shortsightedness…back to square one, then!

    #8789
    Anonymous
    Guest

    The powers that be here have come up with a way of treating this as a COC with no need for a new application form (not my idea, I must say) – use Reg 7(7) of the HBR 2006 to create a continuous entitlement…

    #8790
    Ozzies Mate
    Participant

    Just one thing to throw into the melting pot for this.

    I know everyone is talking about the rent liability here but does the ctax liability not come into this scenario re COC or new claim.

    i.e. there will be a continuous liability for CTB as would change at date of move so surely all that needs to be considered is whether HB is paid up to following Monday for old property or there should be a break in HB entitlement from date of move until liability begins at new prop.

    Am I wrong in thinking this? 😕

    #8791
    Kevin D
    Participant

    Ozzie’s mate:

    I may have misunderstood your post, so bear with me…

    CTB would be continuous – agreed. But, if there is a break in HB, a new claim is still needed for HB, even if the CTB side remains continuous. It’s nuts, but a nettle that the DWP has shown no inclination to address – at least to my knowledge.

    Regards

    #8792
    Ozzies Mate
    Participant

    No, no perfectly understood – I think it may have been me making a presumption. 😳

    We use an abridged version of our full claim form just covering the sections relevant to rent & residency for our change of addressess & of course this would be classified as the ‘new claim’ for HB purposes.

    #8793
    Ozzies Mate
    Participant

    No, no perfectly understood – I think it may have been me making a presumption. 😳

    We use an abridged version of our full claim form just covering the sections relevant to rent & residency for our change of addressess & of course this would be classified as the ‘new claim’ for HB purposes.

    #8794
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I have been thinking about this and looking carefully at Regs 79 and 80.

    Reg 79(2A) says:

    “Subject to paragraphs (8) and (9), … where the change of circumstances is (a) that a person moves into a new dwelling occupied as the home… that change of circumstances shall take effect on the day on which it actually occurs”

    Paragraphs (8) and (9), to which the above is subject, say:

    “(8) Subject to paragraph (9), where a change of circumstances occurs which has the effect of bringing entitlement to an end it shall take effect on the first day of the benefit week following the benefit week in which that change actually occurs …
    (9) Where the change of circumstances is that a person moves to a new dwelling and immediately after the move he is treated as occupying his former dwelling as his home in accordance with regulation 7(7) or (10) then that change of circumstances shall take effect on the day after the last day for which he is treated as liable to make payments in respect of the former dwelling in accordance with whichever of those regulations applies in his case.”

    At first sight, there is circularity here (but see comments on para(9) below). On the one hand the change only takes effect from the exact day of the move if there is continuing entitlement – so you cannot end entitlement under para (2A) as some people have suggested above. On the other hand, if the change ends entitlement then it doesn’t take effect until next week under para (8) … but in this case, the claimant would be entitled at the new address by then so entitlement wouldn’t end after all! I don’t agree with the DWP view that entitlement stops and then immediately starts again without a break – that doesn’t make sense to me at all, if there is no break how can entitlement stop?

    I am strongly persuaded by Kevin’s argument that we are still dealing with a whole week’s entitlement in a case like this, albeit with rent, income and applicable amount broken down pro rata under Reg 80, and that entitlement would only truly come to an end if there is a whole week in which the claimant is entitled to nothing.

    As a second argument, I would turn to para (9) of Reg 79. At first sight, it looks like this qualifies para (8) and only applies in a case where the claimant will no longer be entitled to HB when the Reg 7(7)/7(10) period runs out. But it isn’t drafted to apply exclusively in those circumstances. Para (9) is drafted as a free-standing effective date rule for any case in which Reg 7(7) applies, and acts to override not just para (8) but para (2A) as well. I therefore think that Andy_U_Illingworth’s boffins have come up with a valid idea: use Reg 7(7) for the last few days of the week, implement the change of circs under para (9) and, hey presto, continuous entitlement!

    #8795
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Postscript: the ‘boffins’ withdrew the idea of using Reg 7(7) due to the [b:994b7742b1]if he could not reasonably have avoided liability[/b:994b7742b1] clause…

    #8796
    Anonymous
    Guest

    How does a weekly tenant reasonably avoid paying rent for a week then?

    #8797
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It’s to do with the way the Housing Department charge people here, so it would not be a problem where you do have a full week’s liability. I do still like Kevin’s idea of entitlement being for a benefit week, even if the due payment is only (say) 3/7ths of a ‘normal’ week’s payment, which would work for us here.

    #8798
    seanosul
    Participant

    I thought that the boffins had put this to bed with a nice simple shortened claim form. As VF has been abolished, there is no need to go through the whole new claim process again, simply a form confirming other circumstances have not changed (flagging them for a Hb Review later).

    The ending of liability is what allows benefit to be paid to the end of the week and therefore a new claim is required for the new address. There is a way for it to be counted as a change in circumstance, however that would still leave arrears for the tenant.

    There is no liability for address b. There remains a liability for address a. For the week the change in circumstance happens the tenant would be entitled to the number of days of liability at the old rent and zero times number of days at rent b, there would be a further change for the week the entitlement starts to set the rent to the new liability. Therefore no new claim required but a poor situation for all as it would leave the tenant with a shortfall based on the number of days of no liability.

    #8799
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Is this not a simple matter of entitlement continuing to the end of the week because the business of getting HB only for the days in occupation is to do with getting a pro-rata payment of the weekly rent, not with end of HB entitlement? HB is a weekly benefit so entitlement itself only ends at the end of the week even if the claimant is only paid say 3/7 of it because moves out on the Wednesday???? Therefore end of entitlement and new claim for new address does not come into this particular scenario at all?
    Please tell me if I’m right or barking up the wrong tree entirely? (Maybe Peter Barker would like to comment- no pun intended 😆 ).

    #8800
    seanosul
    Participant

    What we are atempting to do is to pay the last week of occupancy. This is because Housing charges on a weekly basis commencing Monday. When the tenant moves mid week there is no liability at the new address. This therefore stops entitlement.

    You are correct in that yes we could take the decision to process this as a change of circumstances and pay benefit based on 3/7ths or whatever element of the liability. This however would leave arrears and cause the claimant confusion. The lack of a liability for the remainder of the week affords the opportunity to treat the change as an end of liability. This brings Reg 79 (8) into effect. In doing so as entitlement is brough to an end because of the number of days with no liability a new claim form is required.

    [quote:1ad017b23f]
    8) Subject to paragraph (9), where a change of circumstances occurs which has the effect of bringing entitlement to an end it shall take effect on the first day of the benefit week following the benefit week in which that change actually occurs except in a case where a person is liable to make payments, which fall due on a daily basis, in respect of a hostel in which case that change shall take effect on the day on which it actually occurs
    [/quote:1ad017b23f]

    To me this seems logical

    #8801
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I’m sorry for being thick but can you clarify your point:
    “When the tenant moves mid week there is no liability at the new address. This therefore stops entitlement. ”
    I can see what you mean about no entitlement at the new address but how does moving out mid week at the old address stop entitlement there? To go back to my previous point, if HB entitlement is for the week, the fact that the HB is only paying for 3/7 (or whatever) doesn’t alter the fact that the tenant remains entitled to HB for the whole of that week- albeit only at 3/7 and not at 7/7. In otherwords its a payment issue not an entitlement issue. Tenant stays entitled to the end of the week.
    I know this means tenant losing some HB but I can’t see how it can be interpreted any other way. ????? 😕
    I don’t think the part of the reg you quoted about “when a change of circumstance causes an end of entitlement” refers to this sort of situation (moving home mid week) at all- more to do with say winning the lottery or something else that would stop entitlement altogether.
    Please tell me where I’m going wrong (or right???)

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