Terms & Conditions

[Louise Morritt]

Example

Claimant starts work on Monday 7 August. Last day of entitlement to JSA(IB) is 6 August. Claimant qualifies for an EPP. Would you treat Monday 7 August as the date of change and pay claim to Sunday 13 August and then EPP from Monday 14 August to Sunday 10 September? Or would you treat 6 August as date of change, end claim from 7 August but pay EPP from 7 August to 3 September?

Thanks

[markp]

My view.

HB ends with effect from 13.8.06 and EPP would start from 14.8.06.

Willing to be corrected though.

Do I know what I'm doing? The jury's out on that........................

[Anonymous]

Off the top of my head I seem to remember that the rules differ for EPPs – I believe that if JSA ends on a sunday you cancel from that sunday and award the EPP from the monday – in this case Mon 07th.

I too stand to be corrected though!

[Stephen Murray]

Think this topic has been discussed before, see the link

http://hbinfo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1772&highlight=

[Ozzies Mate]

Agree with Charliejohn. In the case of EP’s & only EP’s if the end date of JSA or IS is a Sunday then the HB is terminated from the follwoing day & the EP effective from this day.

[Kevin D]

In my view, Mark P is correct.

The link offered by Stephen covers this issue and I still stand my analysis in that thread.

This was also looked at in:

http://hbinfo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5537

Regards

[markp]

Still stand by what I said but I have recently input one such case and it did actually cancel from the Monday immediately following IS cessation so didn’t do what I had expected. It would seem therefore that Charlie John’s analysis of the situation is right.

Oh, well, at least I know, (until the next change in Regs!)

Do I know what I'm doing? The jury's out on that........................

[Kevin D]

The computer does it, therefore it must be correct….. Hmmmmm…..! 🙂

From new.hbinfo.org.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1772 :

[quote:546b698c0f] ([b:546b698c0f]paraphrased[/b:546b698c0f])….I am struggling to see how IS/JSA(IB) etc can be treated as having ceased on a Sunday where there is entitlement for that same day. In my humble (?) opinion, the date of cessation is the first day of non-entitlement. In effect, I’m tending towards agreeing with Darren’s analysis.

If the wording of HBR 65A(1) had been that HB “…shall cease at the end of the benefit week in which the last day of entitlement to IS or JSA(IB) occurs”, then the DWP advice would clearly be correct. However, 65A does not say that. Have I missed any definition of “cease” or a “deeming” provision? [/quote:546b698c0f]

So, unusually, I disagree with Charlie.

Regards

[markp]

Still rumbling (or rambling?!!!) on.

I have read, re – read and re – read the appropriate Reg and am still not totally convinced by this. I presume that the relevant day must mean the last day of IS/JSA(IB)/IB/SDA is payable and so this governs the date that HB/CTB ends. Therefore if it ends on a Sunday and no EPP period is input then SX3 will kick it forward to the correct date for a change in circs and will only change it if an EPP is input. At least this is what I think must happen, although I am convinced that the machine on my desk thinks for itself and does what it wants, irrespective of my existence (Paranoia I know but………). I’m willing to be corrected on the technical aspects here as I’m no Techie…….

Therefore I suppose I see why the EPP kicks in straightaway although the Reg seems to ramble around this and the dispute over effective dates for EPP’s will ramble on and on until we finally get something in English!!

I therefore accept, albeit reluctantly, that EPP’s have been given a different classification in that they are terminations of a claim leading to an EPP and subsequent new claim rather than a straightforward(?!!!) change in circumstances.

Do I know what I'm doing? The jury's out on that........................

[Anonymous]

Having gone away and read the regs – my solution is as follows (sorry for old reg references haven’t had time to look up new regs):

Old reg 68 – ([i:8d4ae2d5fb]date upon which change of circumstances is to take effect[/i:8d4ae2d5fb]) states that where a change is cessation of entitlement to benefit, the date on which the change occurs shall be the day immediately following the last date of entitlement to that benefit.

This suggests that the logic behind the regs and therefore behind old reg 65A ([i:8d4ae2d5fb]date on which HB is to end[/i:8d4ae2d5fb]), is that entitlement to benefit ‘ceasing’ refers to the last date of entitlement to that benefit and not IMHO as Kevin’s quote suggests the first day of non-entitlement – old reg 68 merely being a deeming provision directing us to treat the the change as if it occurred on the day after the last day of entitlement.

My view is that where someone meets the conditions of entitlement to an EPP – old Reg 65A would kick in to terminate their HB before Reg 68 could take effect.

[Ozzies Mate]

Hopefully the same as CharlieJohn but I based my agreement on the contents of circular A7/2004 which states:-

24 Entitlement to HB/CTB ceases on the last day of the benefit week that entitlement to IS/JSA(IB) ceases due to the qualifying conditions being met.

25 From April 2004 benefit periods have been abolished, and in all other cases a move into work will be treated as a change of circumstances.

26 However, in the case of extended payments, a move into work cannot be treated as a change of circumstances on HB. The current HB claim must cease, before payment of an extended payment can be made. Once the four week period of the extended payment has been completed, the claimant may make a new claim for “in work” HB. This should be actioned as a priority so as not to disadvantage claimants after their extended payment has ceased.

[markp]

Can’t wait until the contents of para 26 are declared Ultra Vires and we revert to what we did before that!!

Do I know what I'm doing? The jury's out on that........................

[Kevin D]

It seems to be common ground that the crux is whether or not “cease” includes the last day of entitlement to IS/JSA(IB) etc, or refers to the first day of non-entitlement.

Which neatly leads back to a request for any case law / CDs etc where this may have been addressed….

Ozzie’s mate: Moving into work is definitely a change of circs – it just sometimes happens to be subject to HBRs 77 & 78 which provide for the circs when HB must be terminated. The wording used by the DWP is misleading. As it happens, it doesn’t affect the crux of the EP argument.

Regards

[Anonymous]

I am entirely in agreement with Kevin on this issue, and think the auditors are being led astray by the wording of the DWP guidance.

Starting work [i:df9100b90f]is[/i:df9100b90f] a change of circumstances, with or without an EP award, and to say that it is not is utterly misleading. What the DWP should be saying is that starting work when an EP award is made is [i:df9100b90f]not like[/i:df9100b90f] other changes of circumstances. The reason why it is different is because it is a change which requires us to bring a benefit award to an end, rather than simply adjusting the amount payable.

To think, then, that the effective date of change for EP/non-EP cases is different is also wrong (if it was, it should be explicitly stated in the regs). Where an EP is awarded the decision maker should end entitlement to maximum HB/CTB on the same date and using the same rules as one would end entitlement to maximum benefit in a non-EP case. In other words, where the last day of entitlement to IS/JSA(IB) is a Sunday, maximum HB/CTB is payable to the Sunday of the following week, regardless of whether an EP is awarded or not. The [i:df9100b90f]only[/i:df9100b90f] difference for EP cases is that they must complete a whole new application, rather than just providing evidence of their new income.

From the DWP Guidance Manual:

‘Change – Benefit paid under the 1992 Act ends

Change takes effect from – The day immediately following the last day of entitlement to that benefit’

…and…

‘The change…occurs on the first day after IS/JSA(IB) entitlement has ended not on the last day of entitlement. For example, if the last day of entitlement is a Sunday, the change of circumstances occurs on the Monday. Benefit entitlement will end with the last day of the benefit week in which the change of circumstances occurs (in this case, the following Sunday)’

I would quite happily beat an auditor over the head with that until they see reason!

[Anonymous]

Just had this back from the Adelphi:

[color=blue:cd5376a9fb]Andrew,
Thanks for the email,

Reg 74 and Reg 77 and Schedule 7 deal with the qualifying conditions, award and payment of an extended payment.
Reg 77 deals with the date on which HB ceases on the award of an EP.

Reg 77 prescribes that ” a claimant’s entitlement to housing benefit shall cease at the end of the benefit week in which entitlement to Income Support or income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance ends…..”
Therefore for example.

HB/CTB would be paid up to the last day of the benefit week in IS/JSA (IB) ceases:-

For example:-

If IS ends on a Monday 29/05/06 (that is to say the last day of entitlement is Sunday 28/05/06) then HB should be paid up to and including, the end of that benefit week Sunday 04/06/06.

If IS ends on a Sunday 28/05/06 (that is to say the last day of entitlement is Saturday 27/05/06) then HB should be paid up to and including the end of that benefit week Sunday 28/05/06.

Thanks

Phil Fallowfield

HBSD[/color:cd5376a9fb]

Which, one would hope, would be enough to convince an auditor that if an ETD shows a JSA(IB)/IS termination date of a Sunday, the JSA/IS ceases on the Monday.

[Author]

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