Terms & Conditions

[markg]

Hi

Not a technical question, more of a general point/question really.

I am curreNtly experiencing a glut of proposals for 'supported accommodation'. These are from various providers, some backed by well known consultants. The phrase 'intensive housing management' cropping up in every case.

Now, I know this is tied in , to some degree, to my county council's accommodation strategy for housing people with learning disabilities, and I fully suspect providers are 'getting in now' before the changes to HB for supported accommodation in April 2019.

I currently have 10 proposed developments (refurbishments of existing properties) on my desk all of which naturally want my 'indicative HB decision' like yesterday.  I just wondered if I am alone, or other parts of the country are experiencing it.  These are taknig up a lot of my time, all of a sudden, and I can see this only going one way.

NB; I am a shared service, covering 3 councils.  

[peterdelamothe]

Join the club! I think these have been an issue for years.

The LHA changes were of course dropped last week and we now expect a paper setting out the revised plans tomorrow…Halloween!!

[Dawnie]

yep I have two proposals, rents over £300 a week

 

Dawn

 

[emmam]

we have been inundated recently, both with refurbished properties and new builds – all the rents are £300 + per week.

Emma

[Jo Hagger]

We have about 9 of these schemes on the go thanks to our Adult Social Care Section. Getting the breakdowns of service charges is easy, getting them to respond to my queries regarding the charges is like pulling teeth. Then when you do get the answers they want you to agree the rents within 24 hours. It is so much work.

One large scheme has said that as it is "extra Care" then the communal charges for the restaurant & the Gym are eligible for HB as they form part of the rental agreement & the tenant must use them as they need rehabilitation. They are arguing that the gym & restaurant do not fall under ineligible in Schedule 1 as they are not "leisure" facilities – they are necessary facilities.

To my mind if they are using the Gym for their health reasons or the restaurant as they are unable to cook for themselves then this is personal care & is not eligible for HB. Also where does provision of a gym or a restaurant solely for the use of the tenants come under "adequate provision of accommodation"

This will be a new build but they reckon the roof & all windows will need replacing in 20-25 years – so you can imagine the size of the sinking fund. Do they not get an NHBC certificate for 10 years?

Does anyone agree with me? Any thoughts/comments would be gratefully received.

Jo

[peterdelamothe]

As you all suggest these charges are not really eligible. I guess providers are rushing to try to raise funds a) because of the supporting people fund being decimated b) the new funding scheme being proposed is almost certain not to include any of this.

A gym cannot be met by HB and I guess they are just seeing how far they can press you. You have already set out two reasons to refuse and there is the fallback position that it is unreasonable to meet such charges as set out in the regs. I doubt it would get to that. As I have said before, the original High Court decision that looked at all this in detail is always the place to start. The Judge made it clear that HB cannot meet such costs and this slow creep is because the alternative funding arrangements became a discretion….

So all you can say is no and if the tenant wants to take it to a Tribunal they can…..although there is of course plenty of caselaw on all of this. It is interesting that these consultants don’t want to get these types of “cheeky”cases to Upper Tribunal …..because that sets out a clear precedent binding on all.

I sympathise with the amount of work involved…..

[Jo Hagger]

Thank you Peter for your comments, please may I be "cheeky" and ask for caselaw reference you are mentioning as that would be so helpful?

Jo

[peterdelamothe]

There is so much caselaw that I don’t know where to start.

http://new.hbinfo.org/caselaw/2011-ukut-304-aac

has a look at a lot of the legislation about what is reasonable for instance. A search suggests about 70 cases discuss service charges.

[peterdelamothe]

http://new.hbinfo.org/caselaw/r-v-st-edmundsbury-hbrb-ex-parte-nicholas-sandys-1997-ewhc-admin-711

have a look at this as well.

Lots of others that may be relevant…I am sure other members will suggest some to you (esp as I am off on hols after today for a while to somewhere a bit hotter!).

[Jo Hagger]

Thank you Peter much appreciated. Have a nice hols.

[Loretta1974]

Hi Following this I have a new proposal come in today requesting  a proposed agreement. in principle

One of the charges is for Uninsurable voids of around £3.00 per tenant per week. This has been split over 10 years. 

When I asked what this was for they advised that the property was to be converted into 5 seperate self contained apartments.  The property is currently 1 large bungalow so they stated that once the lease is agreed and completed they have to start paying the rent, as tenants cannot move in until the adaptions are completed this is to cover the lease (prior to moving in).

Has anyone else come across this and have you agreed it?

Thankyou

Lorett

 

 

[Jo Hagger]

I have not come across this before but are the including a charge for "normal" voids as well? I suppose if they are only claiming one charge for voids can you argue against it?

[Loretta1974]

H Jo

Yes there is also a further charge for voids.  I have looked through and am considering whether this could go under Building adaptions and refurbishment which is an allowable expense???

[Jo Hagger]

I suppose you could however, they could only charge it in the 1st year, it could not be included ongoing.

[Jo Hagger]

I have now heard from the developers again regarding my scheme with the communal charges for the restaurant & the Gym. They are now saying that they want us to pay for the building of & the communal charges for heating,lighting, etc – I am still arguing that as they are deemed leisure they cannot have the communal charges. Now they are saying that it cannot be "extra care" without the gym & restaurant & are now trying to say it is the terminology!!!

I just cannot see how I can accept the charges at all not even the building of it let alone the communal heating etc.

[Author]

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