Terms & Conditions

[KevinW]

Hello

 

Which of these questions is relevant in determining if accommodation is tied and therefore HB not payable? 

 

1. Would you have to move out if you lost your job?
2. Do you have to live there to do your job or could you live somewhere else if you wanted?

 

Thanks

[John Boxall]

Reg 9 (1)(i) states

(1) A person who is liable to make payments in respect of a dwelling shall be treated as if he were not so liable where—

(i) his occupation, or his partner´s occupation, of the dwelling is a condition of his or his partner´s employment by the landlord;

So if the occupation is  ,……a condition of his or his partner´s employment by the landlord….' then the claimant is treated as not liable to make payments

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the god of day goes down upon the dreary scene, and—and in short you are for ever floored.

Wilkins Micawber, Ch12 David Copperfield

[KevinW]

Thanks John, so from that I read that a condition of their employment is that they must live where they do.

 

So in a situation where a landlord offers accommodation for their employees, which they can choose to live in or not, but which they must leave when they are no longer employed, would you say that HB is payable? So long as they pay rent of course. 

[John Boxall]

Well, occupation is not '……a condition of his or his partner´s employment by the landlord' so it should be OK to pay – subject to any other issues

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the god of day goes down upon the dreary scene, and—and in short you are for ever floored.

Wilkins Micawber, Ch12 David Copperfield

[pbirks]

but having to leave if you no longer work for the landlord? that sounds like its not an enforcable condition, UNLESS its part of the tenancy that accommodation s only avaialble while working for the landlord – which does sound like its tied – remeber nursinf accommodation? you didnt HAVE to live there, but you could only do so if you were working for the landlord (NHS)

We used to pay those only where the job had ended and NHS were charging rent/mense profit until clmt vacated (im going back donkeys years )

the landlord has said employment is a condition of residence, rather than the other way around.

[graeme]

I've got a case like this at the moment which I'm not sure about.

The claimant works in a hotel and has a partner and child. They live in a flat owned by the same company as the hotel, very close to the hotel with a subsidised rent – a little over half what the market rent would be. There is a one page staff accommodation agreement which says "You have rented this staff accommodation at a subsidised rent reserved only for staff for the duration of your employment with xxxxxx hotel. At the end of your employment you will give up this accommodation immediately".

They don't have to live there but they choose to. Occupation is not a condition of employment so according to Reg 9 and the guidance manual this sounds like HB is payable. But it seems strange to me.

 

[jamcon]

I think the easiest way of finding out if the accommodation is tied in many cases is to ask to see the contract of employment. Certainly for non-agricultural occupations, the contract of employment will often stipulate if the person needs to reside in a certain property as part of their employment or not.

[graeme]

It doesn't stipulate in the employment contract that they have to live there. It's a perk they can take up if they want. It doesn't seem to fall foul of Reg 9, but at the same time it is the same as the nurses example, and as pbirks says we didn't pay HB there. Or is it the same… did the nurses pay rent on their accommodation while they were employed?

[pbirks]

Occupation IS a condition f emloyment though – they can only occupy IF employed by the company/hotel

why isnt hat tied?

My parent s ran pubs for years , and rented the accommodation over the pub

ey didnt have to live there, but they could only live there if/while they were runnng the pub. tied accomm in my opinion

[graeme]

I suppose it comes right back to Kevin's original question. Does "occupation is a condition of employment" mean you would have to move out when your employment ends, or does it mean you have to live there and aren't allowed to live anywhere else while you're employed?

[angyw]

In this instance as the employee does not have to live in the accommodation in order to have the job I would consider it eligible for HB.  Hotel work is transient in nature so sometimes the only way to get staff is to offer accommodation if the employee needs it, rather than as a requirement of the job. They are free to keep the job and move out if they wish. 

[KevinW]

Hmm, it seems that people have some conflicting views on this. 

 

Is anyone  aware of any caselaw regarding Reg 9 (1)(i) ? 

[pbirks]

for me the test would be if the customer hd to leve the accommodtion id they no longer worked for the landlord

 

if so, the accomm is only avaialble while working for the landlord – which ties the accommodation to the job

its a choice but its still tied

[jamcon]

I don't think thedefinition of tied accommodation is as wide as Pbirks states above. The House of Lords in its decision Glasgow Corporation v Johnstone 1965 seems to imply that it is tied if the occupation of the premises is imposed at the least for the better performance of employment duties. The Court of Appeal in Chapman v Freeman 1978 put it in terms that it is necessary to live at the property for the performance of their duties, rather than convenient. Both those concepts are more restrictive than whether they have to give up the tenancy/licence when they leave employment.

[graeme]

Thank jamcon. I'm going with HB payable on my case.

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