When to remove Child benefit from HB calculation

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  • #31628
    vicky
    Participant

    Hi all I was wondering if you could help with a question i have re Child benefit end dates.

    After looking at HB/CTB circular A6/2006 and Guide to Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit 2010/11 I’m am totally confused regarding what they class as a terminal date.

    I was always under the understanding that if Child benefit ended on the 31.08 even though Child benefit would carry on paying until the 6th. We would remove child benefit from monday following 31.08. But the Circular states that terminal date is monday following 31.08 which would mean HB would be ended monday following 06.09.

    Does anyone know what is the correct sernario to use

    I hope this makes a little sense any help would be great.

    #88419
    Michelle Howley
    Participant

    My understanding is that the terminal dates are

    o 31st August
    o 30th November
    o The last day in February
    o 31st May

    The Monday following this date is the last date CHB is received.

    Dependant allowance is not included on the HB/CTB from the Monday following the last day CHB is received

    Example
    A young person leaves full time education on 28/07/010. CHB will continue to be paid until the first Monday after 31/08/10 which is 06/09/10. The dependants allowance will not be include on the claim from Monday 13/09/10

    The dependant becomes a non-dependant, and if they are over 18 a non-dependant charge may be appropriate.

    #88420
    tracey j
    Participant

    The very same issue has cropped up in our office.

    I am tending to agree with Vicky (and then I change my mind by the end of this post).

    I can’t understand why the regs would refer to terminal dates if this was not relevant. They could simply say that a dependant is no longer a qualifying young person from the date that Child Benefit ceases – this would give us the effect that Michelle has explained (Monday following the Monday following the CB terminal date).

    Whereas I was viewing it as saying that you are not a dependant from the Monday following the terminal date.

    But then if the change of circs regs are applied, we would say the change occurs on the Monday following the terminal date and so HB is reassessed from the Monday following that date. This would make sense to ensure that they are classed as dependants while CB was in payment.

    Would appreciate some help too..

    #41313
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It’s the later of the two Mondays but I see both at my office..

    #88421
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Just adding my tuppence-worth, but not saying I’m right!

    My take on it is that the effective date should actually be 6th September. CHB is paid in arrears, and the last payment made on 6th September. That doesn’t actually mean it covers the period 6th September – 12th September.

    The last payment actually covers 30th August to 5th September, therefore the first monday following that date is 6th September? That makes sense to me, but I’m not saying I’m right.

    Edit: I just rechecked the CHB letter on the case I was refering to. It clearly shows CHB being paid for two children from 2/8/10 and only one from 6/9/10. In the case I was refering to, last payment would be 30/8/10. You might want to check the date they did actually get that last payment, as the CHB terminal date is 31/8!

    Mark

    #88422
    cfowkes
    Participant

    I agree with Michelle, If the 6 September is the first day a young person ceases to be a QYP then the change takes effect from the 13 September.

    #88423
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Just wondering if the OP was refering to a child leaving school at the end of last term or if it’s a student who’s left a course in August?

    A6 states: [quote:a0e066ef50][b:a0e066ef50]21 For QYPs who continue in FTNAE or undertake a course of approved training, ChB will be paid to the terminal date following the end of their education or training.[/b:a0e066ef50]
    22 With effect from 10 April 2006, the current terminal full time education end dates will be replaced with the following four new terminal dates, Monday following
     31 August
     30 November
     the last day in February
     31 May
    Example
    When a child leaves school following the end of compulsory education ChB ceases from the Monday following 31 August.
    [/quote:a0e066ef50]

    If they left education in July, then reading the above, I’d be inclined to say that they are no longer a QYP from 6/9/10, but my claimant has shown that CHB is no longer payable from Monday 6th September, which makes me thinks the change of circs date would be 5th September? 😕

    #41317
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Am i being dense here, or is it not simply a case of applying HB Reg. 79(1):

    [quote:f0492615d5]79. Date on which change of circumstances is to take effect

    (1) … a change of circumstances which affects entitlement to, or the amount of, housing benefit (“change of circumstances”) shall take effect from the first day of the benefit week following the date on which the change of circumstances actually occurs, [b:f0492615d5]and where that change is cessation of entitlement to any benefit under the benefit Acts, the date on which the change actually occurs shall be the day immediately following the last day of entitlement to that benefit.[/b:f0492615d5] [/quote:f0492615d5]

    CHB is paid weekly, therefore entitlement continues following the termination date of 31/08/10 to 05/09/10.

    First date of non-entitlement is 06/09/10, therefore effective date of change is 13/09/10…?

    #88424
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I would agree with Jerry if the change of circumstance were the ending of Child Benefit itself. But I think that technically the change of circumstance actually is that the child has ceased to be a person of prescribed description for the purposes of HB Reg 19. To find out the exact day on which that happens, you need to follow up the reference to Regulations made under s142 of the Conts and Bens Act. These no longer feature in the Blue Volumes on DWP, because Child Benefit is now HMRC’s gig. So I haven’t checked, but the commentary in CPAG talks about the date being the Sunday before the key date, which is certainly consistent with the applicable amount provisions in HB Schedule 3.

    That brings us back to “midnight is not a moment, midnight is a place”, but I think the clear intention and expectation is that the child drops out of the applicable amount from the earlier of the two Mondays.

    #88425
    Stuart Macd
    Participant

    Hi

    Peter are you saying that Shedule 3 would not be classed as a change of circumstances under reg 79 or are you saying that the change is effective on the Sunday rather than the Monday

    Shedule 3 states

    2.—
    (1) The amount specified in column (2) below in respect of each person specified in column (1) shall, for the relevant period specified in column (1), be the amounts specified for the purposes of regulations 22(b) and 23(c)—
    Column (1) Column (2)
    Child or young person Amount
    Persons in respect of the period— SI 2010/793
    (a) beginning on that person´s date of birth and ending on the day preceding the first Monday in September following that person´s sixteenth birthday; (a) £57.57;
    (b) beginning on the first Monday in September following that person´s sixteenth birthday and ending on the day preceding that person´s twentieth birthday. (b) £57.57. 20th birthday substituted for 19th from 10 April 2006 by SI 2006/0718

    (2) In column (1) of the table in paragraph (1), “the first Monday in September” means the Monday which first occurs in the month of September in any year.

    I am finding it hard to apply if the child benefit and the applicable amounts would all end on the Sunday prior to the 1st Monday in September then why would this not be classed as a change of circumstances effective on the Monday and therefore be carried to the Sunday following the 1st Monday in September.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated

    Thanks
    Stuart

    #88426
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I may be wrong here, but is the confusion not down to [i:5bc9a21590]when[/i:5bc9a21590] HMRC actually consider the change of circs date to be?

    For example, the Child Benefit letters only state that CHB is no longer payable from 6th September. However, on the Tax Credit letters, it clearly states that CTC ends on 31/8/10. Therefore, if HMRC consider that dependant is no longer a QYP from 31/8/10…are we not meant to follow suit? 😕

    #88427
    Stuart Macd
    Participant

    Hi

    Re HMRC they are no longer a qualifying young person from the terminal date, however Child Benefit will remain in payment during that week.

    I agree that the end date is the Monday after terminal date

    Thanks

    #150856
    alijones5866
    Participant

    Re: CB End Dates – Dependant to Non-dependant

    We use the Civica Revs&Bens system.  Can anyone please confirm for me, that where CB termination date is 31/08/15 and is no longer payable from 07/09/15, we should end the dependant from 06/09/15 and make them a non-dependant from 07/09/15 and if a SPD exists on the ctax a/c this should also end on 07/09/15?

    I've been getting totally confused with the termination date of 31/08/15 and CB ending on 07/09/15 and want to make sure we're using the correct dates to amend from dependant to non-dependants, i.e. 31/08 & 01/09/15 or 06/09/15 & 07/09/15.  I'm writing instructions and I want to make sure i've got my facts straight before i pass them out to everyone else!!!

    #156930
    Lucia
    Participant

    People are mentioning the CHB Terminal Date as 31 August, but circular A6/2006 states the Terminal Date is the 'Monday following' 31 August.

    Quote

    Terminal dates

    21          For QYPs who continue in FTNAE or undertake a course of approved training, ChB will be paid to the terminal date following the end of their education or training.

    22          With effect from 10 April 2006, the current terminal full time education end dates will be replaced with the following four new terminal dates, Monday following

    • 31 August
    • 30 November
    • the last day in February
    • 31 May

    Example

    When a child leaves school following the end of compulsory education ChB ceases from the Monday following 31 August.

     

    #156931
    alijones5866
    Participant

    Thanks

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